There is a Malay proverb that fits Shamsul Saad’s predicament almost perfectly: kerana mulut, badan binasa. On Thursday, 6 August 2026, Shamsul, better known as Sam, and Bryan Kong were arrested following a joint episode involving The Gut Shot Podcast and Let’s Get It Podcast. Police are investigating the case under Sections 298, 504 and 505(c) of the Penal Code, Section 4(1) of the Sedition Act 1948, as well as provisions of the Communications and Multimedia Act 1998.
An arrest is not a conviction, and whether either man will ultimately be charged remains to be seen.
Having listened to the episode and examined the transcript, however, I find it difficult to muster much sympathy for Sam. He is entitled to advocate secularism and to argue that religion should be separated from government. Anyone is. What is objectionable is the contemptuous manner in which he chose to make that case.
At the 42:24 minute mark, Sam declares that religion “does not demand evidence” and must be accepted “without question”. He then tells people to “keep your religion to yourself”, says religion should be removed from governance, adds “keep your mouth shut”, and argues that political parties based on religion should be banned. By the 43:08 minute mark, he is asserting that governments based on religion have “failed miserably throughout history”.
His secularist argument becomes openly contemptuous shortly afterwards. At the 44:05 minute mark, Sam explains his conception of liberalism before declaring, “So you don’t like liberal? Too bad because you’re stupid.” At the 44:27 minute mark, he contrasts being “stupid” with being successful and insists that a person had better learn secular knowledge and become liberal.
The tahfiz discussion was even more reckless. There was a legitimate argument available to him about balancing religious instruction with mathematics, science and other academic subjects. Instead, at the 65:46 minute mark, Sam calls those who disagree with him “ass hats” and tells them “don’t be stupid”. At the 66:30 minute mark, he challenges them to name a country that spends significant time on religious studies and becomes a technological powerhouse, before concluding, “Zero, jackass.”
Whatever intellectual point he was attempting to make was buried beneath needless insults. There was no requirement to call people stupid, “ass hats” or “jackass” to argue that Malaysia should strengthen STEM education. Once the argument descends into contempt for those defending religious education, it becomes much harder to pretend that this was simply an academic discussion about educational priorities.
His remarks about halal certification were similarly sweeping. At the 36:58 minute mark, Sam questions why halal certification is needed at all. By the 37:31 minute mark, he claims that it became legislated “because it makes money”, suggesting that those in authority wanted power over businesses because “more power you hold, more money you make.” Criticism of halal bureaucracy is fair game. Alleging that an institution of obvious religious significance is driven by money and regulatory power demands more care and evidence than Sam provided.
His conduct is harder to excuse because he was not merely a guest. As host of The Gut Shot Podcast, Sam was participating in a joint episode with Let’s Get It Podcast and knew perfectly well that his remarks were being recorded for publication. The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ once said, “idhā lam tastaḥyī fa-ṣnaʿ mā shiʾta”, “If you have no shame, do as you wish” (Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī, Kitāb Aḥādīth al-Anbiyāʾ, Ḥadīth no. 3483). Sam appears to have mistaken the warning for permission.
This was no accidental slip of the tongue. Sam had repeated opportunities throughout the discussion to moderate his language, but chose not to.
My sympathies lie much more with Bryan Kong.
At the 42:24 minute mark, Bryan’s role in the major religion segment was essentially to ask whether religion and politics could go together. The controversial answer that followed was Sam’s.
The distinction is equally apparent during the tahfiz discussion. Bryan admitted that he knew little about the system and was trying to understand it. After Sam’s remarks became particularly heated, at approximately the 67:01 minute mark, Bryan responded, “okay okay yeah that’s definitely enough”. That sounds considerably more like someone trying to close down the rant than someone encouraging it.
Bryan was involved in hosting and publishing the episode, so it is understandable that investigators would want to question him about how it was produced and disseminated. But the transcript does not place him on the same footing as Sam when it comes to the statements that appear to have caused the religious controversy. Sam supplied the words. Bryan appears to have been caught in the fallout.
There should be room in Malaysia to debate secularism, religious education, halal administration and the relationship between religion and government. Muslims should also be capable of hearing arguments with which we strongly disagree. But serious debate does not require telling religious people to keep their faith to themselves, ordering them to shut up, calling opponents stupid, or dismissing defenders of religious education as “ass hats” and “jackass”.
Sam could have made his substantive arguments without any of that. Instead, he chose provocation over persuasion.
For Bryan, I hope common sense prevails.
For Sam, the old proverb will suffice.
Padan muka. Kerana mulut, badan binasa.